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 Post subject: Post Eldraine Prediction
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-22 2:58 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
So I hadn't played much in the last year or two, and I was skeptical of Eldraine 'cause there's a lot of cards that look very different from past sets. But as I've dug into it, I'm really enjoying it... recent sets have given us a flood of legendary creatures to build around, and while they're not all winners (cough new Zegana), most of them are unique and cool. So for example, between Rankle, Ayara, and Sir Konrad, you got three different monoblack generals in a single set, and not only are they all very different, they're very different from any previous monoblack legend (which is impressive, 'cause there's a lot of monoblack legends).

Some of the other EHD-oriented cards turned out pretty cool as well. I really like the Eldraine legendary artifacts... they're flavorful, and they're titanically powerful (but in a good way, where you have to put in some work to make them good). And some of the 60-card-deck-oriented cards still manage to plug some holes in the EDH game (like Questing Beast finally giving green decks a way to win through an opposing Spore Frog).

So it kinda seems like life should be good

BUT

In the long run, I think pushing 3-mana planeswalkers is going to have a negative impact on the format. Cards like Narset, Parter of Veils, Ashiok, Dream Render, and Teferi, Time Raveler are just not fun cards to play against. They're weird throwbacks to 1990s Magic, where the point of the game felt like it was to frustrate your opponent until they quit. I thought this was just a gimmick for Guilds/War of the Spark, but looking at how stupidly good Oko, Thief of Crowns is, I feel like this is the start of a unhappy trend.

Because at multiplayer tables, as it becomes easier to choke the table with cheap planeswalkers, it's going to become correspondingly harder to win "fair" games with creature combat. In turn, this is going to push a lot of players away from the diverse array of cool, fun potential commanders available, and keep them in the same narrow channels of same-y seeming combo/ramp, "big turn" decks.

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 Post subject: Re: Post Eldraine Prediction
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-22 10:55 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
Planeswalkers have been a bit of a problem for me since Lorwyn. The concept of introducing a new card type inheretly reduces interactivity. Not only do planeswalkers give you a slow grind of effects, but they are harder to answer because the first 15 years of magic, no good answers were printed. My wife, who was an oldschool alpha player who dabbled in and out until lorwyn quit the game because of them.

Now, i've accepted that they are part of the game, but they definately promote a mire grindy value-based play style and War of the Spark made so friggin many of them, i did not buy the set.

I tend to over do how many PW answers i run. Having to attack them to remove them seems to be value people (and even wotc) ignores. They are like enchantments that have a good effect AND soak damage.


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 Post subject: Re: Post Eldraine Prediction
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-22 11:13 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
I, too, have been not much of a fan of the really powerful 3-4 mana walkers. Oko, in particular, is obnoxious and really high loyalty at 3. It's an uphill battle to deal with it, especially if they're just grinding out food tokens to while biding their time for a thing to Elk. Nobody in my group was willing to shell out for an Oko, but one of them pulled one in a pack after last session, so, it's inevitable that I'll have to deal with him. Maybe we should just be running more Abrupt Decay? Vindicate/Anguished Unmaking/Dreadbore/Murderous Rider/Hero's Downfall? If there are a lot of walkers, maybe Magmaquake or Hour of Devastation is the answer.

Honestly, I'm not being sarcastic, I don't know what the solution is.

I will say that I found the War of the Spark walkers were a nicely balanced bunch. It was refreshing change to have walkers with (mostly) innocuous passive abilities, and no devastating ults to contend with, so it's possible to ignore them (kind of). It makes them more like value enchantments without some huge pay-off. Obviously some of them (like Narset, Parter of Veils) had really heavy-handed abilities that kind of demand you deal with it (in most decks, anyway), but some like Ashiok, Dream Render I find very refreshing. My group has started to play a few of them that sort of protect themselves or provide some decent value, like Vivien, Champion of the Wilds.

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 Post subject: Re: Post Eldraine Prediction
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-23 3:20 am 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Kemev wrote:
In the long run, I think pushing 3-mana planeswalkers is going to have a negative impact on the format. Cards like Narset, Parter of Veils, Ashiok, Dream Render, and Teferi, Time Raveler are just not fun cards to play against. They're weird throwbacks to 1990s Magic, where the point of the game felt like it was to frustrate your opponent until they quit. I thought this was just a gimmick for Guilds/War of the Spark, but looking at how stupidly good Oko, Thief of Crowns is, I feel like this is the start of a unhappy trend.


I agree with the thrust of this point, but I wouldn't include Ashiok in the same category as Narset or Teferi. I can get, theoretically, why someone wouldn't find playing against efficient tutor and graveyard hate on one card particularly fun, but I find in practice it does much more work preventing people from tutoring for combo pieces and Craterhoofs (setting up their "big turn" decks) than randomly hosing Cultivates or whatever you're worried about here.

(I freely confess, the fact it punishes people for off-colour fetchlands is something I'm also 100% here for, but that's just a personal bias).

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 Post subject: Re: Post Eldraine Prediction
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-23 4:27 am 
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Maybe we will see more creatures like Plague Spitter, which isn't that bad to begin with (although I don't even know if that even does damage to planeswalkers under the current rules). Murderous Rider seems like a good direction for black kill spells.

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 Post subject: Re: Post Eldraine Prediction
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-23 4:29 am 
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Location: Duvall, WA
Shabbaman wrote:
Maybe we will see more creatures like Plague Spitter, which isn't that bad to begin with (although I don't even know if that even does damage to planeswalkers under the current rules). Murderous Rider seems like a good direction for black kill spells.


Each player damage was not errated to effect planeswalkers. Which is too bad imho


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 Post subject: Re: Post Eldraine Prediction
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-23 1:36 pm 
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Sinis wrote:
If there are a lot of walkers, maybe Magmaquake or Hour of Devastation is the answer.

Merciless Eviction (if you can run it). GTFO of my game.

Sinis wrote:
no devastating ults to contend with

Dude... did you read Liliana, Dreadhorde General? I'm pretty sure one-sided Cataclysm counts as devastating. Also Nicol Bolas, Dragon God.... ick.

Shoe wrote:
Having to attack them to remove them seems to be value people (and even wotc) ignores. They are like enchantments that have a good effect AND soak damage.

I like to think of them as "Enchantments you can punch". Think of it this way - if they were enchantments, they'd be just as obnoxious and harder to kill.

All-in-all, I'm not ready to get on the Planeswalker Sky-is-falling train at this point. My general experience with them is they tend to get murdered promptly before doing too much damage. The nightmare scenario is when someone can either ult them immediately because Doubling Season or is playing the "drop some walkers and blow up the world" deck, but in those cases, it's not the walkers themselves that are ruining the game.

I DO think preventing them from being generals (except specific exceptions) is the right move, because there are a lot of them that would be annoying from the command zone.

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 Post subject: Re: Post Eldraine Prediction
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-23 2:42 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jan-25 4:50 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Shoe wrote:
Shabbaman wrote:
Maybe we will see more creatures like Plague Spitter, which isn't that bad to begin with (although I don't even know if that even does damage to planeswalkers under the current rules). Murderous Rider seems like a good direction for black kill spells.


Each player damage was not errated to effect planeswalkers. Which is too bad imho

which pissed me off so much, I loved pyrohemia as an answer to planeswalkers. Such a great card. always hated planeswalkers. I make it a point to include as few as possible in my decks.

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 Post subject: Re: Post Eldraine Prediction
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-23 2:57 pm 
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Bruticus wrote:
Shoe wrote:
Shabbaman wrote:
Maybe we will see more creatures like Plague Spitter, which isn't that bad to begin with (although I don't even know if that even does damage to planeswalkers under the current rules). Murderous Rider seems like a good direction for black kill spells.


Each player damage was not errated to effect planeswalkers. Which is too bad imho

which pissed me off so much, I loved pyrohemia as an answer to planeswalkers. Such a great card. always hated planeswalkers. I make it a point to include as few as possible in my decks.


amen brother, i sell most if not all of mine. superfriends decks make me wanna scoop


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 Post subject: Re: Post Eldraine Prediction
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-23 11:59 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Merciless Eviction (if you can run it). GTFO of my game.
Every w/b/x deck I run. I think exiling all creatures is my historically least-used mode. It lays just about anything low without too much collateral damage.

Quote:
Sinis wrote:
no devastating ults to contend with

Dude... did you read Liliana, Dreadhorde General? I'm pretty sure one-sided Cataclysm counts as devastating. Also Nicol Bolas, Dragon God.... ick.


I should have offered a caveat that I was thinking of the not-mythic walkers, like Ajani, the Greathearted or Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor. The uncommon/rare walkers are pretty tame, but, not unusable (I have a fondness for Ajani, Sarkhan the Masterless, and [c]Vivien, Champion of the Wilds). I think they're nice-ish.

Even Liliana and Nicol Bolas are not that big a deal to me; they're probably appropriately costed (a friend of mine has played Liliana a lot, and it always ends up being a 6 cmc Barter In Blood + a little draw + tiny fog). It isn't that Lili isn't good (she is!), but she's mostly been classed as 'premium priced removal' to my group.

I haven't even seen Nicol Bolas played, but I can see how that +1 could be a problem if you're behind.

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 Post subject: Re: Post Eldraine Prediction
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-24 12:41 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
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So I don't hate planeswalkers as a card type; I thought they added a lot to the 60-card game in terms of flavor and deck archetypes. Also, Lorwyn was like 10 years ago at this point, which is kinda a long time to hold a grudge.

I also don't hate Superfriends in Commander (at least, not til recently). Part of the balance is that the archetype doesn't really come together until the player has 3-4 'walkers in play, but at 4-5 mana a pop for the previous generation of A-list cards, it's reasonably difficult to get that critical mass in play. Like Sid pointed out, it's not hard to off them with 1-for-1 removal or a couple attacks.

The big change with War of the Spark is that now it's pretty reasonable to get that critical mass of planeswalkers in by turn 5-6, when they can slip in under a lot of removal, and there aren't many early creatures to threaten them. (Keep in mind a lot of the new top tier PWs come in with 4-5 counters, so it's not like the table's gonna attack them to death with their Wood Elves.)

To give it a little broader context, the folks I play with toe the line on "strong, but fair," pretty well, and when I see players hit the point of, "I'm trying to play nice but I keep breaking things," it's usually an indicator that something is wack.

Sinis wrote:
I don't know what the solution is.


I feel the same. I don't expect any single card to become banworthy, but I am not having a good time with this category of cards. Vivien, Champion of the Wilds is a good example in some ways. I like playing with the card, but it feels hilariously strong... Winding Canyons was already a "shoot on sight" card in my groups, and having that effect as a static ability on a card that also gives me repeatable pseudo-Ponders in mono-green?

I mostly wish this was not an angle WotC was pushing.

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 Post subject: Re: Post Eldraine Prediction
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-25 1:15 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Kemev wrote:
So I don't hate planeswalkers as a card type; I thought they added a lot to the 60-card game in terms of flavor and deck archetypes. Also, Lorwyn was like 10 years ago at this point, which is kinda a long time to hold a grudge.

I also don't hate Superfriends in Commander (at least, not til recently). Part of the balance is that the archetype doesn't really come together until the player has 3-4 'walkers in play, but at 4-5 mana a pop for the previous generation of A-list cards, it's reasonably difficult to get that critical mass in play. Like Sid pointed out, it's not hard to off them with 1-for-1 removal or a couple attacks.

The big change with War of the Spark is that now it's pretty reasonable to get that critical mass of planeswalkers in by turn 5-6, when they can slip in under a lot of removal, and there aren't many early creatures to threaten them. (Keep in mind a lot of the new top tier PWs come in with 4-5 counters, so it's not like the table's gonna attack them to death with their Wood Elves.)

To give it a little broader context, the folks I play with toe the line on "strong, but fair," pretty well, and when I see players hit the point of, "I'm trying to play nice but I keep breaking things," it's usually an indicator that something is wack.

Sinis wrote:
I don't know what the solution is.


I feel the same. I don't expect any single card to become banworthy, but I am not having a good time with this category of cards. Vivien, Champion of the Wilds is a good example in some ways. I like playing with the card, but it feels hilariously strong... Winding Canyons was already a "shoot on sight" card in my groups, and having that effect as a static ability on a card that also gives me repeatable pseudo-Ponders in mono-green?

I mostly wish this was not an angle WotC was pushing.


Give it some time, there will be 'walkers showing up at the normal rate of roughly 12 a year for a while I suspect and so people will either forget about the WAR 'walkers and or they will slowly get more expensive causing people to sell them and/or not be able to afford them in the first place.

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The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: Post Eldraine Prediction
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-31 10:31 am 
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
All-in-all, I'm not ready to get on the Planeswalker Sky-is-falling train at this point. My general experience with them is they tend to get murdered promptly before doing too much damage. The nightmare scenario is when someone can either ult them immediately because Doubling Season or is playing the "drop some walkers and blow up the world" deck, but in those cases, it's not the walkers themselves that are ruining the game.

I DO think preventing them from being generals (except specific exceptions) is the right move, because there are a lot of them that would be annoying from the command zone.

Inkeyes22 wrote:
Give it some time, there will be 'walkers showing up at the normal rate of roughly 12 a year for a while I suspect and so people will either forget about the WAR 'walkers and or they will slowly get more expensive causing people to sell them and/or not be able to afford them in the first place.


Maybe.

I don't think the EDH community at-large has really grok'd just how powerful Oko is in this format. The "+1: Target ARTIFACT or creature gets Elked" is oppressive...

Early game Oko gets to start Elk'ing mana rocks, his starting loyalty makes it really difficult to attack him to death with early game dorks, and a lot of decks won't survive the early mana disruption. Late game Oko is a potentially repeatable removal that clears, well, pretty much anything that doesn't have haste or a strong ETB ability. It's also not like UG/x decks have trouble laying down blockers to cover for him, and with so many decks nowadays in 3-4 colors, it's not like there's a shortage of Elk-slaying board wipes either.

So most generals? Elk
Early mana? Elk
Your bomb ass Mycosynth Lattice? Elk
Sword of Feast and Famine? Elk
That thing you thought Sword was going to protect to stab Oko to death with? Elk
The flood of Oko elk memes? Elk

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 Post subject: Re: Post Eldraine Prediction
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-01 1:26 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Hello, opponents. Look at your general. Now back to Oko. Now back at your Elk. Now back to Oko. Sadly, it isn't Oko, but you stopped playing Boros and started playing Simic, you could include Oko. Look down, back up. Where are you? You're on a battlefield of Elks. What's in your hand? Back to me. I have it, it's your Sol Ring. Look again, your Sol Ring is now an Elk. Anything is possible when you play Oko. I'm on an Elk.

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 Post subject: Re: Post Eldraine Prediction
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-01 3:40 am 

Joined: 2015-Sep-14 9:53 am
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spacemonaut wrote:
Hello, opponents. Look at your general. Now back to Oko. Now back at your Elk. Now back to Oko. Sadly, it isn't Oko, but you stopped playing Boros and started playing Simic, you could include Oko. Look down, back up. Where are you? You're on a battlefield of Elks. What's in your hand? Back to me. I have it, it's your Sol Ring. Look again, your Sol Ring is now an Elk. Anything is possible when you play Oko. I'm on an Elk.

I was having a really crappy day at work today. Then I read this. Thank you for making me laugh!


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