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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-24 9:55 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
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Also fair, I have probably misinterpreted and misread Paragon's comments. So my response was unnecessary provocative, possibly so far as disrespectful. I'm sorry for that.

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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-24 12:15 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
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kirkusjones wrote:
I have managed to avoid Reddit, thankfully, but how do you know that it attracts competitive minded gamers in general?

Well, it's sort of a natural consequence of which kinds of people are more likely to seek out information and communities online. If you're an active casual player, you probably have a great local community, LGS, or group (friends, family) to play with and don't really need to go online for much of anything besides just catching up on news or some card/rules searching. Generally speaking, if you're posting a lot and actively trying to contribute, especially on one of the biggest social networking sites like Reddit, you're doing more than just news--you're probably seeking out fellow players to find out what the best cards are for your deck and meta.

A different example: The Silph Road is one of the primary subreddits for the mobile game Pokemon Go. People there share data, talk about the game and upcoming news, and frequently share experiences about playing. The vast majority of the 448k subreddit there can identify without looking it up pokemon types/weaknesses, movesets, and which pokemon are the best to use for different scenarios.

If you walked out onto the street and asked a random PoGo player some of this info, there's a very good chance they'll barely know any of this basic stuff or even that there's a subreddit called The Silph Road (I think at the game's lowest point, there were still some 5 million players). I know this, because it happened with nearly every interaction with another player I had. please don't judge

I'm not saying every Reddit Commander player is a competitive player per say--not every player is spamming Blood Pod and Breakfast Hulk--just that they are competitive minded. Data from that subreddit will generally skew that direction since they are the kind of players who are seeking out collaboration on what's considered "the best."

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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-24 12:19 pm 

Joined: 2010-Mar-10 1:31 pm
Age: Dragon
I posted this over at nexus,but I'm also posting it here

I'm going to state the obvious but it seems to me that it's both sides who failed over this whole communication thing. For example, the poll I did weeks ago,showed that out of the 75 who responded, 61% never visited MTGCommander the official forums for the format. The question I asked was "Before the week of July 7-13 did you visit and or know about any of the following websites?" I put both sal and commander.net,along with nexus (why i don't know). The other side of that coin has been pointed out is/was the lack of some sort of presence on reddit. even if it's just to post links to threads elsewhere.
Now I'm willing to admit that reddit isn't the best place for long term discussion and it can be an echo chamber. But I do think that going forward the RC/CAG should at the very least post a thread link to on going discussions about cards that take place either here or over at mtgnexusr. As for redditors, I think they should be willing to come out of the rabbit hole and par take in the discussions even if it's only on the official forums.

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trappedslider wrote:
EDIT: so if i somehow manged to get down to 1 life,played Repay in Kind followed by Decree of Annihilation then it owuld be bad evil juju?

That's not how magic works. You can't equate cards and situations linearly like that!


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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-24 12:25 pm 
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specter404 wrote:
Also fair, I have probably misinterpreted and misread Paragon's comments. So my response was unnecessary provocative, possibly so far as disrespectful. I'm sorry for that.


I love that we're all being so nice to each other. Although I must admit, it feels a bit weird. Carry on.

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Basically, when it comes to commander, I want you to stab me through the heart, not cut off my balls.

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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-24 12:55 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
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trappedslider wrote:
But I do think that going forward the RC/CAG should at the very least post a thread link to on going discussions about cards that take place either here or over at mtgnexusr.

We, meaning some of the regulars here willing to volunteer, probably could take up this task too.

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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-24 1:09 pm 
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Joined: 2012-May-11 11:02 am
Age: Drake
Coalition Victory polls comparatively high because it's far and away both the worst and weakest card on the banlist and it's easily recognized as such. Yes, every list of cards will have one that's weakest by default but CV really is a weak win con in modern EDH. So I get why a lot of people in the poll don't worry about it. It also doesn't inspire a lot of chatter because I don't think too many players online want to waste their time batting for a card they look down on.

That's not to say it should be unbanned; it's absolutely a card that is emblematic of what the RC wants to discourage. I'm a fan of smaller banlists but so long as banning one card for the sake of sending a message is part of the overall strategy Coalition Victory isn't a bad ban. I just don't think it's a surprise that it polled well without a groundswell of support.

Also, in regards in Sheldon's post, I appreciate the acknowledgement that a lot of shop players flip Rule 0 and the banlist. I don't know offhand how to fix this but seeing the problem identified in this thread ia heartening at the very least.


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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-24 2:26 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jul-24 2:09 pm
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There needs to be a line drawn with the changes that have, can, or will be made to this format. It's not a matter of proving that our voices are heard, it's a matter of purchase security. Many players are not here to play how you originally intended the game to be played. We'd like to know that you aren't planning to pull a rug out from under us after many years of fairly consistent and reasonable management of the rules and ban list.

I want you folks to know that I respect your creativity and the angle of your inspiration. We wouldn't have this format without you, and I can't thank you properly for all the great times it's brought. I urge you strongly not to purposefully take an action that will only further polarize players of this beloved creation of yours. Don't make the mistake that only you can make by taking bannings and rules adjustments to a preferential place. There are all kinds of strategies and players and this format is the only one with room for all of us to exist. You can separate these groups accidentally, or focus harder on the ideas of sportsmanship.


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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-25 2:00 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Drake
Purchase security is a really hard thing to protect. Watch lists put the cards on uneven ground even if they stay unbanned. People have accused the RC of an imagined and a no illegal form of insider trading, but it is just bitterness not truth in the past.

MTG Finance is really crazy and requires a lot of savvy moves to navigate. If you actively participate and have too much tied to one card, then you have to determine the risk and reward to hanging onto the card. I am lucky enough to not be much affected by it. If I want a card and expect to play it based on what I know, I just keep them forever. (That is why most people with large net worths are older and, terribly unfortunately, young people that make too much too fast end up broke.)

If you are learning what is on other peoples' watch lists, then signal to noise should tell you what might get banned. They don't come out of nowhere. Even Gristelbrand was given a chance even though it was banned after the smallest time legal in the format. It is the best hedge advice I can offer. Engine and Iona are the two cards I thought most likely to get banned based on the signals being sent by reputable voices.

I love black and played Skittles for a short while in Commander. Its not banned, but I stopped because it just isn't a great game experience. I still like owning it. That is enough to make the purchase worth it for me. Everyone has to decide how they feel about that situation. As it turns out, Skittles is not abusive enough to cause major problems, so it solved itself. That is the line you walk when figuring out if paradox engine gets banned or not. If you get close enough to the line to scare you, get out early if you are price sensitive.


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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-25 3:25 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Dee123 wrote:
Purchase security is a really hard thing to protect. Watch lists put the cards on uneven ground even if they stay unbanned. People have accused the RC of an imagined and a no illegal form of insider trading, but it is just bitterness not truth in the past.

MTG Finance is really crazy and requires a lot of savvy moves to navigate. If you actively participate and have too much tied to one card, then you have to determine the risk and reward to hanging onto the card. I am lucky enough to not be much affected by it. If I want a card and expect to play it based on what I know, I just keep them forever. (That is why most people with large net worths are older and, terribly unfortunately, young people that make too much too fast end up broke.)

If you are learning what is on other peoples' watch lists, then signal to noise should tell you what might get banned. They don't come out of nowhere. Even Gristelbrand was given a chance even though it was banned after the smallest time legal in the format. It is the best hedge advice I can offer. Engine and Iona are the two cards I thought most likely to get banned based on the signals being sent by reputable voices.

I love black and played Skittles for a short while in Commander. Its not banned, but I stopped because it just isn't a great game experience. I still like owning it. That is enough to make the purchase worth it for me. Everyone has to decide how they feel about that situation. As it turns out, Skittles is not abusive enough to cause major problems, so it solved itself. That is the line you walk when figuring out if paradox engine gets banned or not. If you get close enough to the line to scare you, get out early if you are price sensitive.


One thing people often forget is equity =/= cold hard cash! I sold my house about 5 months ago and prior to selling it I was told that I have like $80k in equity but in reality I did not make that much in the sale (even discounting fees etc.) Now I could be bitter that I only made $55k or I can realize that the additional $25k was really just a best guess and not actual money in the bank. If I had Ionas (which I sold a while back.) then I could be upset that I lost $$ on those, but I also sold Painter's Servantx3 at the same time and those are worth way more now than they were. Did I sell at the wrong time? I guess you could say that, or you could look at what I did with the money (paid off debt/decreased debt related stress) and maybe I sold at the right time.

Either way, if you are actually selling and buying Magic cards actively you will lose some and you will gain some if you do it cautiously. The point would be to gain more than you lose. If you are not actually selling cards because you are keeping them forever anyways... then does it actually matter what Iona is worth?

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-25 8:00 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Dee123 wrote:
If you are learning what is on other peoples' watch lists, then signal to noise should tell you what might get banned. They don't come out of nowhere. Even Gristelbrand was given a chance even though it was banned after the smallest time legal in the format. It is the best hedge advice I can offer. Engine and Iona are the two cards I thought most likely to get banned based on the signals being sent by reputable voices.

This. This 100%. Personally since I've been playing there's been exactly one banning announcement that has genuinely surprised and confused me, that one being Trade Secrets. Every other ban is something that I'm not going to say I expected, but I had always considered being within the realm of reasonable possibility. There's 20 or something cards that I hear complaints about so often that I've just mentally checked them in as potential watch list material. Primeval Titan, Sylvan Primordial, Prophet, Sundering Titan, Leovold, Iona, and Paradox engine were all in that camp for me prior to their bannings (as were Griselbrand and Worldfire, but I don't count them because they were basically banned immediately after printing and everyone saw that coming).


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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-25 12:02 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I get worried when people start to talk about purchase security. This was a big issue for Magic as a whole and it gave us the reserved list.

Taking something like a ban list to be an absolute ie. this will never be banned or this will never be unbanned, leads to some very awkward situations 5 or 10 years later when you may want to change that decision and can't

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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-26 2:52 am 
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specter404 wrote:
I get worried when people start to talk about purchase security. This was a big issue for Magic as a whole and it gave us the reserved list.


I hate that argument (not yours specter, the one you were replying to.)

I don't think the RC should be beholden to secondary prices at all. Yes, their decisions can affect the secondary market - but so can a bunch of other things. They are the caretakers of the health of the format (IMO) and that should be their primary concern. If a card's price tanks or shoots up based on a decision -- then so be it, so long as the change is attempting to make the format better.


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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-26 3:37 am 
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Carthain wrote:
specter404 wrote:
I get worried when people start to talk about purchase security. This was a big issue for Magic as a whole and it gave us the reserved list.


I hate that argument (not yours specter, the one you were replying to.)

I don't think the RC should be beholden to secondary prices at all. Yes, their decisions can affect the secondary market - but so can a bunch of other things. They are the caretakers of the health of the format (IMO) and that should be their primary concern. If a card's price tanks or shoots up based on a decision -- then so be it, so long as the change is attempting to make the format better.


As someone who has bought and sold many cards on the Reserved list, I will say I hate it. That is one of the biggest reasons for me not being able to play my 2nd favorite way (Vintage). It also means that I have to decide on getting Serra's Sactum for a deck when it is over $100? When I bought them they were $14, and I sold for $60 about 10 years later... but now... This type of thing means that most EDH decks are not "optimized" and that can be frustrating. It causes people to proxy and use Gold bordered cards or worse pay for the really good fakes. I am not saying magic cards can't have a value, but it is after all a collectable card GAME. It shouldn't be a COLLECTABLE CARD game.

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-26 4:27 am 
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I don't think a card's value hinging on EDH viability should be a factor in a ban consideration at all. I get that historically some cards like the original Moxen and Library were banned in part because of monetary cost but those cards are also good enough to be banned even if they were five bucks apiece, so whatever. Cost shouldn't have a bearing on banning, and I don't think it does, thankfully.

Watching Paradox Engine tank made me giggle in a very Rakdos kind of way. Trusting in the volatility of the stock market can be risky enough; you wanna invest in cardboard crack? Okay buddy, your life I guess

Also also as much as I don't really like the RL it's here, it's real, and it's not going away so I mentally write off old expensive RL cards for EDH. Maybe, in the grand scheme of the format, leaving out a Wheel of Fortune makes my list "unoptimized" but I don't play cEDH. So if switching down to a Reforge the Soul keeps my deck from winning, then I didn't build a very good deck.


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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-26 4:40 am 
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Onion Souffle wrote:
Also also as much as I don't really like the RL it's here, it's real, and it's not going away so I mentally write off old expensive RL cards for EDH. Maybe, in the grand scheme of the format, leaving out a Wheel of Fortune makes my list "unoptimized" but I don't play cEDH. So if switching down to a Reforge the Soul keeps my deck from winning, then I didn't build a very good deck.


More than anything it is the mana bases that get hit, especially by newer players. Pay $260 for a Bayou or $6 for Blooming Marsh or $0.15 for Foul Orchard? Now in EDH you likely want more than one land that produces B/G so you would run the OG Dual and the Shock and the Temple etc. but how many of us really want to run Golgari Guildgate? We might because of budget constraints or to do the 5c Golos, Tireless Pilgrim/Maze's End deck, but those are usually the dregs.

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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