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 Post subject: Re: Leadership Vacuum and Melded Commander
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-14 1:34 am 
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Joined: 2011-Apr-25 12:43 pm
Age: Drake
From the Gisela, the Broken Blade Oracle rulings on Gatherer https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=439332

Quote:
In a Commander game, your commander may be Bruna, the Fading Light or Gisela, the Broken Blade, and the other may be in your deck. If they meld into Brisela, Voice of Nightmares, Brisela will also be your commander; but if Brisela leaves the battlefield, only the card chosen as your commander at the start of the game may be put into the command zone.

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 Post subject: Re: Leadership Vacuum and Melded Commander
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-14 4:14 am 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
archmagemc wrote:
From the Gisela, the Broken Blade Oracle rulings on Gatherer https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=439332

Quote:
In a Commander game, your commander may be Bruna, the Fading Light or Gisela, the Broken Blade, and the other may be in your deck. If they meld into Brisela, Voice of Nightmares, Brisela will also be your commander; but if Brisela leaves the battlefield, only the card chosen as your commander at the start of the game may be put into the command zone.


but thats referring to the commander rules replacement effect, cards that force a zone change work differently.


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 Post subject: Re: Leadership Vacuum and Melded Commander
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-14 7:18 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Panphage wrote:
This could basically only happen if the player controlling Brisela somehow plays another person's Leadership Vacuum with Chaos Wand or something else that lets them do it. They'd either have to target themselves or the target would have to be changed to them.

specter404 wrote:
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
I think, yes. Does anyone know a workaround?

Any of the myriad effects that remove abilities from a creature. Most are less than 3cmc, but not all, and there are ways to get them into play without casting them, like sun titan.

Two of them were printed in the most recent set: Frogify and Kenrith's Transformation. Either of those in the yard and sun titan in play turns Brisella into a melded frog/elk.

Still unlikely but it's not quite as unlikely as having the Brisela player do it to themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: Leadership Vacuum and Melded Commander
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-14 4:19 pm 

Joined: 2012-Oct-24 8:05 pm
Age: Drake
specter404 wrote:
Still unlikely but it's not quite as unlikely as having the Brisela player do it to themselves.

Yeah, the only really plausible way is if another player steals Brisela, then casts Leadership Vacuum on themself (perhaps to prevent it from being stolen back).


Thor_Naadoh wrote:
NMS wrote:
2. (Maybe.) Bruna and Gisela have been made into copies of Hanweir Garrison and Hanweir Battlements (e.g. with Shapesharer, Unnatural Selection, and Lifespark Spellbomb). Their controller uses the meld ability of the Battlements in response to Leadership Vacuum targeting them. I think this would successfully meld them, but as far as I can tell the rules don't really cover it.


That won't work. When exiled cards return, they're whatever is printed on them - they're treated as new objects.

If you mean Leadership Vacuum won't work because its target is gone, it actually targets a player, not a permanent. If you mean they won't meld, I found a few threads on reddit or other forums discussing whether a meld pair that are copies of a different meld pair can meld, but no official rulings. Basically the question is whether "meld them into Hanweir, the Writhing Township" means "meld them if possible" or "meld them if their back sides are the two halves of Hanweir, the Writhing Township". Decide for yourself, I guess:

Quote:
701.36a. Meld is a keyword action that appears in an ability on one card in a meld pair. (See rule 712, "Meld Cards.") To meld the two cards in a meld pair, put them onto the battlefield with their back faces up and combined. The resulting permanent is a single object represented by two cards.
701.36b. Only two cards belonging to the same meld pair can be melded. Tokens, cards that aren't meld cards, or meld cards that don't form a meld pair can't be melded.
701.36c. If an effect instructs a player to meld cards that can't be melded, they stay in their current zone.
Example: A player owns and controls Midnight Scavengers and a token that's a copy of Graf Rats. At the beginning of combat, both are exiled but can't be melded. Midnight Scavengers remains exiled and the exiled token ceases to exist.
...
712.1. A meld card has a Magic card face on one side and half of an oversized Magic card face on the other. It doesn't have a Magic card back.
712.1a. There are three specific meld pairs. Each meld pair consists of two specific cards whose back faces combine to form one oversized Magic card face: Midnight Scavengers and Graf Rats meld to form Chittering Host; Hanweir Garrison and Hanweir Battlements meld to form Hanweir, the Writhing Township; and Bruna, the Fading Light and Gisela, the Broken Blade meld to form Brisela, Voice of Nightmares.
712.1b. A meld card isn't a double-faced card. It can't transform or enter the battlefield transformed. (See rule 711, "Double-Faced Cards.")
712.2. One card in each meld pair has an ability that exiles both that object and its counterpart and melds them. To meld the two cards in a meld pair, put them onto the battlefield with their back faces up and combined (see rule 701.36, "Meld"). The resulting permanent is a single object represented by two cards.


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 Post subject: Re: Leadership Vacuum and Melded Commander
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-14 5:04 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-02 3:54 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Germany, near Berlin
NMS wrote:
If you mean Leadership Vacuum won't work because its target is gone, it actually targets a player, not a permanent. If you mean they won't meld, I found a few threads on reddit or other forums discussing whether a meld pair that are copies of a different meld pair can meld, but no official rulings. Basically the question is whether "meld them into Hanweir, the Writhing Township" means "meld them if possible" or "meld them if their back sides are the two halves of Hanweir, the Writhing Township". Decide for yourself, I guess:


No, I mean if you try to meld Bruna and Gisela who were made copies of the Hanweirs, then they'll be exiled and then returned to the battlefield melded - which means they return as Brisela, not as Hanweir.

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 Post subject: Re: Leadership Vacuum and Melded Commander
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-14 5:35 pm 

Joined: 2012-Oct-24 8:05 pm
Age: Drake
I don't think I suggested Bruna and Gisela could meld into Hanweir. My point was that (assuming it's true they can meld while copies of a different meld pair) it's a way to put Brisela onto the battlefield in response to a spell that couldn't be cast while it's on the battlefield.


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 Post subject: Re: Leadership Vacuum and Melded Commander
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-14 8:22 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-02 3:54 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Germany, near Berlin
NMS wrote:
I don't think I suggested Bruna and Gisela could meld into Hanweir. My point was that (assuming it's true they can meld while copies of a different meld pair) it's a way to put Brisela onto the battlefield in response to a spell that couldn't be cast while it's on the battlefield.


Ah, Im sorry - misread that one.
That would actually work.

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If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Generals:
too many, and always changing... except:

Rakdos, Lord of Riots (Demon Tribal)
Melek, Izzet Paragon (Dragonstorm) -> these must stay because of a house rule


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